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Hell opened up, and put on sale. Gather round and haggle.

EVIL
By Vladinator, Section Opinion & Editorials
Posted on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 09:46:19 AM GMT
So, it really is over. With a record turnout, the great ignorant slobbering masses of the festering remnant of a country that was once the land of the free, and the home of the brave, stood up to be counted on the side of theocracy. What. The. Fuck.

dividing image



I really hope this convinces the Demogratic party that they need to stop alienating the far left of the party, and put forth someone who isn't a moderate because they think only a moderate can win. We need someone who represents our fundamental American values - and I'm not talking about the zealots who want to ban gay marrage, take away a woman's right to choose, and give federal monies to religous educational institutions.

I'm talking about REAL American values. Honor. Courage. Commitment. Integrity. Honnesty.

The Neocon's don't share these values with us, and want to spread their corruption as far and wide as possible. And, they're winning. Rural America, always easy to lead blindly down a dark ally toward their own unwitting doom lined up behind one another, lemming like, and handed the country back to the man who didn't have a right to the office he was in to begin with. That's all over now. It's his. Both by popular, and electoral, vote.

May God have mercy on us. Forgive us Lord. The majority of us know not what we did.

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Hell opened up, and put on sale. Gather round and haggle. | 59 comments (59 topical, 0 hidden)
Shameless attempt to inject levity here... (5.00 / 2) (#46)
by Beef on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 01:56:44 PM GMT

Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian faith.
Baptists do not recognize each other in the liquor store or at Hooters.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.



Comment #25 (5.00 / 1) (#28)
by Beef on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 05:53:28 AM GMT

Who wrote it?  Who zeroed it?  What did it say?

Inquiring minds want to know.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.



I'd like to know that too. (5.00 / 1) (#29)
by Vladinator on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:16:09 AM GMT

It doesn't exist. This means it must have been deleted. If things keep disapearing, people with rights to delete comments will become a very short list indeed...

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it. - G.W. Bush"
[ Parent ]



shit!! (none / 0) (#43)
by xxxxxxxxxx on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 01:34:52 PM GMT

It was me, but it was my own comment, I posted it twice. I hit the back button by mistake and ended up posting it twice so I am sorry Massah.......I won't do it again Massah!  Don't beat me Massah!

Truthfully, I figured nobody wanted to read my longwinded comment twice....as I tend to get wordy, you know me, never can shut-up, always talking, can't fit anything into one paragraph.....don't people like that drive you crazy, I mean, they just won't shut up or quit typing or whatever, they just don't know when to stop....

;-)

[ Parent ]



Oh ok. (5.00 / 1) (#44)
by Vladinator on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 01:41:01 PM GMT

That's totally cool. :-)

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it. - G.W. Bush"
[ Parent ]



If the Democrats (none / 0) (#4)
by Beef on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 11:37:11 AM GMT

start compromising on all of the social wedge issues that Republicans keep creaming them on, they would stand a chance.

It's not being "moderate," it's coming to a realization that America doesn't want legalized infanticide, the watering down to marriage to a meaningless short-term domestic arrangement, and secular humanism as the state-sponsored religion.

They can be just as honorable, courageous, and honest.  They can be just as committed to the fight for equality, workers' rights, and the environment.  They just have to get their heads out of their asses when it comes to a few key issues on which they are hopelessly out of touch with most of America.

America was given a choice between four more years of Bush, and four years of a radical social agenda in the White House.  The fact that 51% of Americans chose Bush should tell you how much we DON'T want the latter.

Progress is being made on the Democrat side of things.  The Pro-Life Harry Reid will most likely be the new Senate Minority Leader.  It's a start.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.



you fail (5.00 / 1) (#12)
by MFS on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 04:25:26 PM GMT

to realize just how polarized this is - 51% is NOT everyone. In fact, it is basically half. The other half clearly did not agree.


When my fist clenches, crack it open, before I use it and lose my cool...
[ Parent ]



You miss (none / 0) (#20)
by Beef on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 06:30:19 PM GMT

the point that I was trying to make.  Most people agree on the following:

1. Bush sucks.
2. Having radical social experiments shoved down out throat sucks.

It's not that 51% of Americans made a choice for number 1, and 49% of Americans made a choice for number 2.  It's that 51% thought that number 2 was more sucky, and 49% thought that number 1 was more sucky.  This is not indicative of a divide.  It is indicative of a spectrum of views that happens to have a critical point at 51/49 in favor of Bush.

To illustrate my point, consider the result from Michigan:

President - Kerry 51% Bush 49%
Ban same-sex marriage - Yes 59% No 41%

Different results.  Voters do not divide into a "red" camp and a "blue" camp.  There's a 10% bloc there that cares enough about the issue of marriage to vote for a ban of something that's already illegal, but would rather see Bush go (or, for some unfathomable reason, actually wants to see Kerry as President).

There is no polarization here.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



Yeah! (none / 0) (#16)
by l33t j03 on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 04:51:44 PM GMT

From an historical standpoint 51% is quite a bit better than anyone else has done in a while. Granted, it isn't a slam dunk like Diflucan, but it is pretty good.

I really wish Bush had lost the popular vote again, because everyone got really teary eyed over that.

Pain is weakness leaving the body.
[ Parent ]



Yep, the nazis had it right (5.00 / 2) (#3)
by Bold Marauder on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 08:14:26 PM GMT

to paraphrase; create a large, immediate and pervasive threat; accuse any dissenters of treason under a time of national emergency and you can basically do anything.

And we get to look forward to more of our soldier's dying overseas so that we can have less freedom here at home.

The real kick in the pants is that there's no indication that this slide towards totalitarian corporate theocracy will reverse itself in our lifetimes.

THAT's what kicks me in the balls, personally.

--
.-=Welcome to the Vaginal Grid=-.



I hearby invoke Godwin's law... (5.00 / 2) (#8)
by NerdGirl on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 01:43:43 PM GMT



Who's dead now?
[ Parent ]


Unfortunately (none / 0) (#9)
by Beef on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 01:51:00 PM GMT

that only applies to Usenet.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



still, it's a forum... (none / 0) (#11)
by NerdGirl on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 02:48:23 PM GMT

basically the modern incarnation of usenet.

Who's dead now?
[ Parent ]


Clearly you are correct (none / 0) (#5)
by Beef on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 11:55:51 AM GMT

I mean, the fact that our soldiers and military and their families and our veterans are so overwhelmingly against the war, and crying out every chance they get, is testament to how horrible and misguided this war is. I don't know about you, but every vehicle I see with an Army or Marines bumper-sticker on it also has a Kerry-Edwards sticker.

No, wait, come to think of it, the military establishment in the US overwhelmingly supports Bush and the war. They're probably just afraid that if they speak out against Bush, Ann Coulter will report them to Ashcroft's Gestappo.

Yeah, that must be it.

Also, 9/11 was Bush's Reichstag Fire, planned by Donald Rumsfeld from the very beginning.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



Jesus (5.00 / 1) (#6)
by Vladinator on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 12:51:50 PM GMT

I hope you're trolling.

I'm a veteran, and I am TOTALLY against this war. Not so much because 1100+ of my brothers and sisters still in uniform have lost their lives (though that is important to me) but because of the 100k Iraqi dead as a result of this 'war'.

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it. - G.W. Bush"
[ Parent ]



Sorry, Vlad (2.33 / 3) (#57)
by Adam on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 01:58:22 PM GMT

Swabbing the decks on a coast guard cutter for a couple of years does not qualify you as a veteran in my eyes.

[ Parent ]


LOL (none / 0) (#58)
by Vladinator on Wed Nov 10, 2004 at 04:56:24 PM GMT

#1: I was in the US Navy, not the coast guard. I don't consider puddle pirates to be 'real' vets either, unless they served in time of war, in which case they BECOME attached to the US Navy for the duration of the war.

#2: I spent two of those years serving in a Marine Corps unit. You realize what that means, right? It means I was right out there with them, taking just as much of a chance at being killed as any Marine. I deserve some respect for those two years, even if you don't agree about the other six.

Yeah, yeah, IHBT. :-)

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it. - G.W. Bush"
[ Parent ]



How can a Navy man (none / 0) (#59)
by Beef on Wed Nov 10, 2004 at 07:42:16 PM GMT

be able to stand one week serving in a USMC unit?  Didn't the smell get to you?

Sorry, three grandparents in the Navy, including one who was a submarine CPO and served for the duration of WWII, so I'm a bit partial.  :-)

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



Heh. (none / 0) (#60)
by Vladinator on Thu Nov 11, 2004 at 11:36:19 AM GMT

Well, as a Corpsman, it was my job.

The smell didn't bother me as much as the stupidity did. :-)

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it. - G.W. Bush"
[ Parent ]



I didn't say all veterans are for the war (none / 0) (#7)
by Beef on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 01:13:04 PM GMT

But a majority are.  Yes, of course there are those against it, but most of the military community is behind this war.  And the brave people going into Iraq are proud to be risking their lives for our benefit.  That tells me that this cannot be a completely evil adventure.

Personally, I don't think we should have gone into Iraq.  At least, not yet.  It was a bonehead move to take our forces and resources away from Afghanistan.  But keeping the world safe, and forging a better world for everyone is going to cost lives.  Protecting our freedoms is going to cost lives.  We're not going to live in a world in which there are groups fanatical enough to suicide themselves in an effort to kill thousands of innocent people, and rogue governments evil enough to supply them with the means to do so.

And leaving Saddam in power would have cost more Iraqi lives than the war will.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



Yes, it is an evil adventure, actually (none / 0) (#14)
by Bold Marauder on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 04:42:43 PM GMT

And I'll tell you why:

1)There is no proof NONE that saddam gave signifigant support to the terrorists. None has come up, and none will.

2)Instead of making the world either
      more safe
or
      more free of 'terror'

This has, instead, further destabilised an already unstable region; alienated moderate islamic nations which we could have used to exert positive influence and has allowed osama bin laden to play armchair economist since he no longer needs to go out and recruit people (since our antics in that region are driving them to his arms in droves).

Protecting our freedoms is going to cost lives.

They are costing our lives
and those lives are being lost in a bid wich is making the world less safe for freedom.

_ We're not going to live in a world in which there are groups fanatical enough to suicide themselves in an effort to kill thousands of innocent people_

We are killing thousands of innocent people over there, for nothing!

That's damned fanatical, in fact, that's down right evil.

--
.-=Welcome to the Vaginal Grid=-.
[ Parent ]



FACT: Saddam supported plenty of terrorists. (none / 0) (#30)
by Beef on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:25:58 AM GMT

"1)There is no proof NONE that saddam gave signifigant support to the terrorists. None has come up, and none will."

That's not... entirely... accurate.

    * Iraq shelters terrorist groups including the Mujahedin-e-Khalq Organization (MKO), which has used terrorist violence against Iran and in the 1970s was responsible for killing several U.S. military personnel and U.S. civilians.

    * Iraq shelters several prominent Palestinian terrorist organizations in Baghdad, including the Palestine Liberation Front (PLF), which is known for aerial attacks against Israel and is headed by Abu Abbas, who carried out the 1985 hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro and murdered U.S. citizen Leon Klinghoffer.

    * Iraq shelters the Abu Nidal Organization, an international terrorist organization that has carried out terrorist attacks in twenty countries, killing or injuring almost 900 people. Targets have included the United States and several other Western nations. Each of these groups have offices in Baghdad and receive training, logistical assistance, and financial aid from the government of Iraq.

    * In April 2002, Saddam Hussein increased from $10,000 to $25,000 the money offered to families of Palestinian suicide/homicide bombers. The rules for rewarding suicide/homicide bombers are strict and insist that only someone who blows himself up with a belt of explosives gets the full payment. Payments are made on a strict scale, with different amounts for wounds, disablement, death as a "martyr" and $25,000 for a suicide bomber. Mahmoud Besharat, a representative on the West Bank who is handing out to families the money from Saddam, said, "You would have to ask President Saddam why he is being so generous. But he is a revolutionary and he wants this distinguished struggle, the intifada, to continue."

    * Former Iraqi military officers have described a highly secret terrorist training facility in Iraq known as Salman Pak, where both Iraqis and non-Iraqi Arabs receive training on hijacking planes and trains, planting explosives in cities, sabotage, and assassinations.

Of course, depending on what you mean by "the terrorists."  If you mean "the specific men who hijacked the planes on 9/11," then no.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



I'm not seeing anything linked to al-qeada (sp?) (none / 0) (#34)
by Bold Marauder on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 08:29:55 AM GMT

Which was supposedly who we've been after since 9/11.

If we're just going after every country who has terrorists period we better start bombing most of the middle east, ireland and palestine right now.

--
.-=Welcome to the Vaginal Grid=-.
[ Parent ]



Another point of misunderstanding among many (none / 0) (#37)
by Beef on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 09:23:25 AM GMT

This war (not Iraq, but the war on terror in general) is not just about 9/11.  It's just just about Al-Queieoudia.  This is a global conflict that has been going on since long before 9/11, involving many more countries than just the US.  We used to be able to sit back, securely buffered by two large oceans, and let this thing play itself out.  Maybe give some support to Israel (because the rest of the world decided, as usual, to abandon the Jews), but otherwise, it wasn't out concern.  We weren't threatened, and we didn't need to be involved.  This was the policy of both Republicans and Democrats.

Then 9/11 happened, and we realized that we couldn't stay out.  This was our fight too.

And now we're doing the dirty-work of the rest of civilized world, and getting zero thanks for it.  I'm not indignant that we're being scorned by the likes of France and Germany.  I am indignant that they aren't doing their share to keep the world safe.  It was Western European colonialism that is in part responsible for creating this mess, so it should be the job of Western Europe to clean up after it.

A handful of world leaders, people like Tony Blair and Silvio Berlosconi, have the vision to understand this.  The rest obsinately dig their heels in and say "war is bad, mmmkay," and are content to let the status quo persist until half the world is radicalized and oppressed by fundamentalist Islam.  (Just as a certain country, mentioned in the previous paragraph, was content to let the Nazi tanks roll into their capital and profane one of the brightest seats of Western culture.)

This is not about revenge for 9/11.  This is about cleaning up a huge global mess, so people can live free, self-deterministic lives, and not either live under the tyranny of despotic rule, or the threat that such tyranny creates.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



One tiny thing to point out: (none / 0) (#23)
by Beef on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 06:55:41 PM GMT

Bush wins, we're still in Iraq.

Kerry wins, we're still in Iraq.

Bush sent us to war.  Kerry voted for the war.  Either one would have to deal with the consequences.  I thought Bush was the better man to do so.  We'll find out if I'm right.

Also, if the GOP doesn't f*cking produce, this voter is turning them out on their asses in 2008.  That's a promise.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



Point taken, which is why I voted for neither. /nt (5.00 / 1) (#24)
by Bold Marauder on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 07:21:13 PM GMT



--
.-=Welcome to the Vaginal Grid=-.
[ Parent ]


And THAT is why we lost. (none / 0) (#31)
by Vladinator on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 07:12:32 AM GMT

I'm begining to think that people who don't vote should face some sanction. People who vote for some retarded third party candidate are shitting themselves if they think they do anything but help the repulinazi religious right.

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it. - G.W. Bush"
[ Parent ]



YHBT, however unintentionally (none / 0) (#33)
by Bold Marauder on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 08:26:07 AM GMT

I was referring to this comment.

In a word, I didn't vote for kerry (though that is the circle I filled in), I voted against ashcroft

WRT third parties, I have to disagree. This time around the sentiment was very much on the side of "put everything else aside and vote bush out" and -at least on the left- that is what we did.

And it did no good.

Not only has it done no good, but it's done severe harm to america by allowing a slide to the far right because the republican party has been co-opted by the christian coalition and the democrats are busy being republican-lite.

But instead of coming together (which, in the best of times, is something that american progressives have never done -and these are far from the best of times) and creating a real, viable alternative, we've voted in favor of the two party system hoping -like the fool sliding quarter after quarter in teh one-armed bandit- that we'll eventually win our money back.

We won't, and it's time for any one who isn't a "republican-lite" to leave the democratic party and come up with a real, viable alternative.

If it isn't even too late to do so.

But the idea of "if you don't vote for one or the other you're wasting your vote" is exactly what has caused this mess, because it has sanctioned the democrat's move to the far right --since they can -and do- take their progressive constituency for granted (after all, where else are the poor going to go for representation? to the republicans?).

The best way to help the republican right is exactly to vote democrat or republican -simply because that allows this game of two-card monte to continue.

If America doesn't come up with a real, viable alternative, we'll have a theocracy; and we'll deserve it.

Sorry for the rant. :)

--
.-=Welcome to the Vaginal Grid=-.
[ Parent ]



Heh. (5.00 / 1) (#35)
by Beef on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 08:53:32 AM GMT

I fully encourage all Socialis^W "Progressive" goateed, latte-sipping, Salon-reading dupes to leave the Democrat party.  All, what, 1.5 million of them nationwide?  I, for one, will become a card-carrying member of the Democrats should that ever happen.

Holy mother of Pete, do you have any idea what this sounds like to about 80% of the country?

Co-opted by the Christian Coalition?  A theocracy?  Anyone who does not want gay marriage and legal abortion to the point of birth is part of a vast, right-wing conspiracy to hand our country over to theocratic rule? Anyone who sees things this way is quite simply so out of touch with the values of mainstream America, it... it just leaves me speechless.

The Democrats represent the interests of workers, the poor, and minorties.  They have now for about 100 years, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.  The Republicans represent the interests of business and capital.  These interests are sometimes at odds, sometimes not.  One isn't good, and one isn't evil.  They are both valid interests and both need to be represented.

Now, there is an attempt by both parties to drive ideological wedges into the electorate to strengthen their power.  The Republicans have been much, much more successful in this effort, because they understand the social ideals of mainstream America, and the DNC is populated with liberal elitists who are out of touch.  Because of this, poor people are voting against their interests.  Obviously not all of them are, but enough are to give the Republicans a decisive advantage on the national level.

This is not the Republicans' fault for being "taken over by the Christian Coalition."  It's the Democrats' fault for being on the wrong side of the wedge.  Mainstreaming their views on these unrelated isses does not make them "Republicans lite."  It doesn't even make them "moderate."  Rather, it brings them back in touch with the average voter, so once again they can go back to doing what they do best: being a voice for the poor, working familes, minorities, and the environment.

Puh-lease, spare us this doomspeak about Christians taking over the country and turning it into a Nazi state.  It just makes you sound silly to anyone who isn't a member of the extreme left.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



WEll............... (none / 0) (#47)
by xxxxxxxxxx on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 02:08:30 PM GMT

Um, I don't like the idea of abortion up to the point of birth, only in extreme cases........like potential death to both mother and child or catastrophic problems that will cause pain and suffering to the infant and eventual death anyway.  Why make a infant suffer for nothing....let it go in peace and painless.  Believe me, I have seen the ones that suffer on machines for a year or more then die anyway, it is so horrible and sad for the parents and the quality of life for that child is pitiful.  Can we be merciful without being baby killers??  I think we can.

The other side is that, it is up to the Mother what she wants to do.  The death of that child is on her head, not anyone elses.  It is her decision, so it should be left that way.  Control is control is control, free will is exactly the opposite and that is what the Bible says we have, is it not?  So why does the Government who is supposed to be so Religious now days not letting that be?  That is my complaint or two cents worth there.

My stance on Gay Marriage?  Why not!  Who are we to say that its wrong or right?  What business is it of ours?  It costs them in the long run, not you or anyone else.  Without marriage, same sex couples cannot have any benefits for each other, they cannot be qualified in a death situation unless the will is explicit in its directives and it can be contested by the family of the deceased who may not want the significant other to get a thing.  It isn't fair to them.

What is marriage anyway?  Isn't it the union of two people who love and respect each other and want to live their lives together.  If they are gay, what is the problem with them living that way and defining their relationships, evan a marriage, that way?  Come on, aren't we being a bit judgemental on that, and again, if you are religious, you know what it says about being judegmental, that we have no right to be that way, only God does.

It is just that I don't like people who talk out of both sides of their mouths (or speak with forked tongue as Native Americans used to say) and that is what I see.   A hypocrite is a hypocrite, no matter how you spell it.  

I just believe people should be able to live their lives the way they choose when it comes to their bodies.......that means sex, marriage, childbirth, etc.  And for the record....I am not actually pro-abortion I love children and think they all deserve a chance, but I also believe that a woman has a right to choose too.  There are far too many unwanted children in this world who suffer greatly by having a mother who is neither mature nor responsible enough to be a good mother.  They are not adopted, but put in foster homes and believe me, that sucks royally when you find out what kind of foster parents usually get them.  It makes me sick sometimes to see it.

Ok, so I am one of those, latte sipping idiots you spoke of earlier who believes that people deserve freedom to make thier own choices and learn to deal with the way it effects them later on.  That is the only way to learn in this life.  I believe you deserve the right to think and live and be whatever you want and would fight for that for you if necessary.........I respect your opinions and your life.

With that, I shut up for now because I am tired, old and this was my extra day off this week and I ended up blowing leaves out of my yard and raking them up into bags.  What fun!  :-)  It is onto holiday thoughts and plans........I am tired of politics.....want to think of happy things!!

I want a 'footbath/massager' for Christmas!!!!!!!

[ Parent ]



Some good things here (none / 0) (#50)
by Beef on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 03:04:42 PM GMT

I'm getting bleary-eyed here, and I'll probably tap out before long, but I haven't quite run out of steam...

Um, I don't like the idea of abortion up to the point of birth, only in extreme cases........like potential death to both mother and child or catastrophic problems that will cause pain and suffering to the infant and eventual death anyway

I think I would probably be in agreement with you. Always, always, always, we save the life of the mother. However...

Why make a infant suffer for nothing....let it go in peace and painless. Believe me, I have seen the ones that suffer on machines for a year or more then die anyway, it is so horrible and sad for the parents and the quality of life for that child is pitiful. Can we be merciful without being baby killers?? I think we can.

You're getting into a dangerous place when you start saying "this baby should live, this one should die." Is it our job to deal out life and death? Many people think children shouldn't suffer through life with Down's Syndrome. Yet these are some of the happiest individuals you'll ever meet. What if it was your child with Down's Syndrome, and the doctors started pressuring you to euthanize him because he'll have a poor "quality of life?" Everyone deserves a chance to live.

And if someone is a person with a right to live, the mother has no right to decide whether that person should live or die. That is an inviolate right of the individual, and it is the duty of the state to protect our right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I can also sympathize with someone wanting to form a family with someone else that he or she loves. I think people should be able to do that. I really have no interest in what people do behind closed doors, or how other people choose to live. I do have a problem when a small group of people expect the rest of society to bend over backwards and reinvent their social institutions for those people's benefit.

No, I don't think you are a latte-drinking type, although you do have some ideas that most Americans don't share with you. I also never said that such people are idiots (well, to be fair, I did call them "dupes.") Most of these people have PhDs, and are quite accomplished in the world of ideas. But when it comes to understaing ordinary folks and what they think, they are out of touch, and tend to scorn those with traditionalist ideas. And this tends to irk me.

And that's all I have to say, because obviously this could go on forever, and I have a weekend to attend to.

Thanks for the discussion, though.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



The "mainstream" where? (none / 0) (#36)
by Bold Marauder on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 09:16:45 AM GMT

Sorry, for the last thirty odd years the fact that a woman has a right to abort a fetus inside of her own body has been taken for granted in most of the country.

It's not infanticide; it's not even an infant for fuck's sake!

Anytime you break out the hystrionics about "infanticide" (as you are wont to do) and portraying the inclusion of gays into the mainstream as a wacky "social experiment" you sound silly to anyone who isn't a member of the fringe right.

However, given the fact that you, yourself, are a christian who espouses right-of-center views I don't expect you to have the perspective that someone who is not a christian would have.

As far as the democrats supporting minorities; before the civil rights movement, your southern democrats sure as hell didn't -that party had to be drug into the modern era kicking and screaming almost as much as the republicans did (kennedy and johnson doing the dragging, of course)!

--
.-=Welcome to the Vaginal Grid=-.
[ Parent ]



You are out of touch. (5.00 / 1) (#38)
by Beef on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 09:39:44 AM GMT

Anytime you break out the hystrionics about "infanticide" (as you are wont to do)

Sucking out the brains of a fetus that could survive outside of the mother, chopping it up in utero, and disposing of it in the garbage. What better word is there?

and portraying the inclusion of gays into the mainstream as a wacky "social experiment" you sound silly to anyone who isn't a member of the fringe right.

Eleven states had gay marriage bans as a ballot initiative (something I find unnecessary, as it's already illegal, and marriage has been solely a male-female union for 10,000 years), and all eleven passed. Overwhelmingly. It passed by 59% in Michigan: a state that only went 49% for Bush. Sounds pretty damn "mainstream" to me.

Look, men have been screwing men as long as there have been men and women. As long as we have had marriage. It is only in the past 100 years that men who liked to screw other men have felt the need to identify themselves as an "oppressed minority," and only in the past 30 that they have felt that their "equality" is threatened because they can't "marry" the way men and women can. It's all a bunch of Marxist group-identity BS. We've had homosexuality forever, and we've had marriage as a male-female union forever. Why is this only a problem now?

And yes, I left the Dixiecrats out of my discussion of Democrats. I should say the Democrats have only been representing the interests of minorities since the 60s. But it hardly detracts from my point.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



This is what I mean about dishonnesty about choice (none / 0) (#52)
by Vladinator on Mon Nov 08, 2004 at 06:57:39 AM GMT

The VAST majority of abortions occure in the first 6 to 10 weeks. Many states, even ultra liberal California, have laws against abortion (except in rare circumstances) beyond the 5th month.

In short, the right takes the fact that there is no federal law banning late term abortions, and runs with it - and the gibbering idiots in the south lap it up like fine wine. Don't bother to confuse them with the truth.

Choice, like so many other things, is a states rights issue, not a federal one. It's just another example of fear mongering on the part of the right to scare the drooling idiots into voting for the conservative right as opposed to the left.

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it. - G.W. Bush"
[ Parent ]



exactly! (5.00 / 1) (#53)
by xxxxxxxxxx on Mon Nov 08, 2004 at 09:20:36 AM GMT

Living in the south I see a lot of that.  It is called pandering to the moral and religious beliefs of the 'good old boys'!!

You would not believe the people who believe that if a girl is raped, or is a victim of incest, should still have that child and if she can't bear to keep it, then give it up for adoption.  Do they not realize that when you think it is ok to do that, you are saying that incest and rape are basically ok and that its ok for a woman to live with that shame and humiliation over and over again.  Women are not respected in the south typically because they are thought of as being less intelligent than men and are good for one thing.....SEX!

To point out that the thoughts that go with that don't just lie in the south but in any rural, redneck American state you choose.  When Political figures go out and apeal to these people, they are saying that they want the ideas of these people to become majority.  I really do have a problem with that.

Is it so hard to understand that you represent the people who vote you in office.  So think hard before you vote because if Joe Redneck Jr and all his friends, relatives, state, etc are voting for someone and that someone is who you are voting for, you might want to think again.

Look, I believe we all have rights, but I live in an area where the Baptists and the Moral Majority seem to run everything and they were bigtime for Bush.  This doesn't mean I am anti-christian, just anti-lets run everything and tell everybody what they should and shouldn't do because GOD says so.  Sad part about it, God usually never said what they say he did.  It is their judgment call and their interpretation.  Many times interpretation is wrong.

It scares me, plain and simple that people can be lead by the nose and not realize it.

[ Parent ]



40 million abortions (none / 0) (#54)
by Beef on Mon Nov 08, 2004 at 05:47:45 PM GMT

There are 1.5 million abortions performed per year.  1.3 million are "convenience" abortions.  Reliable statistics on late-term abortions are hard to come by, but it's something on the order of tens of thousands per year.  It's not a scare tactic.  It's reality.  And as I understand it, states can't pass laws against late-term abortion, because the Supreme Court will simply strike them down.  At least until they get some justices that aren't completely fucked in the head on this issue.  I'm not talking about forcing rape victims to carry their unwanted children to term.  I'm talking about ending late-term and convenience abortions.

Yes, this issue should be decided in the states, but we have a Court that won't let the states decide the issue for themselves.

I am a Christian Jew, and as a Jew who had relatives turned into lampshades 65 years ago, there are two things I'm very sensitive about:
1. Holocausts
2. Fascism.

We have a president who is fighting against both.  By fascism, I'm not talking about "we can't broadcast nipples over the air because of the fascist FCC," I'm talking about women being beaten, raped, and mutilated by their familes, and anyone not submitting to the enforced religion being executed.  That's the kind of fuckery we ended in Afghanistan.  You do realize, don't you, that the war on terror is also a war against fascism?  That radical Islam wants to turn the whole world into Taliban Afghanistan?  You all claim you are for liberty, and against theocracy.  Well, what do you think we're fighting?  Fundamentalist Islam is contrary to every value of western liberalism.

We've currently attracted every fascist bastard into Iraq like a magnet, where they can be slaughtered by coalition and Iraqi forces.

And personally, I don't really care who else votes for my candidate, nor why they voted.  I have my own reasons, and they are good enough for me.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



I agree with you on a lot of this........... (none / 0) (#55)
by xxxxxxxxxx on Mon Nov 08, 2004 at 07:16:34 PM GMT

Because I really don't believe in what goes on in those countries either.  The atrocities are almost too many to count, especially towards women.

I too know what you mean about the senseless killing of people as was in the holocaust.  Remember, we had pretty much the same thing here with the Native Americans.  Anyone remember the 'Trail of Tears'?  I think there is much each and every country has to answer for in the final count.

Look, I respect your opinion, do not misunderstand my opinions as a slam against you, they are not.  If you really believe in your candidate, then you should vote for him and yes, your reasons should be enough for you and not anyone else, that is what freedom of choice is all about!!  I am not saying that he is the great 'AntiChrist' here, I'm just saying I disagree with his policies on a personal, female level........there are lot of issues I take seriously with him and would tell him to his face if I had the opportunity.  I didn't agree with all of Kerry's issues either, he was not my first choice for the Democrats!

What I want to see in 2008 is Hilary Clinton running as president with John Edwards as her vice president.  I think that would be a great ticket and both are good politicians, have good, solid ideas about the welfare of the country and its people.

Don't think that I don't realize we need to be powerful against terrorism, we do, I also think we needed to step in to Iraq and help as well as Afghanistan.......I just don't agree with all the reasons.  

As a mother, I have lots of concerns that range from in this country to outside of it.  I see things on a level of how this effects parents and loved ones and also the females of this country.

Beef, I do respect what you have said and think you are a very intelligent and humane person.....please don't take what I say personally, truthfully, one of the reasons I speak out so much is because I care about other people (sometimes too much) and that makes me want to see us strong politically with a person who brings the country together and takes care of us here at home in all things as well as outside.

Perhaps Bush will do that and really surprise me this time around.  He has said he wants to heal this countries rift, maybe he will.  I would like to think he will or at least make a stab at it.  I do think his heart is in the right place.

With that said......forgive my being so outspoken to the point of being offensive, I had not meant to be, not to any one person here, but to a generalization of the 'rednecks' where I happen to live.  UGH!  You would laugh if you could see some of them.  Can we say 'Blue Collar Comedy'.  There are a lot of Larry the Cable Guy's here in my neck of the woods.  

[ Parent ]



Imagine if Germany put Hitler on the 20€ (none / 0) (#56)
by Beef on Mon Nov 08, 2004 at 08:03:29 PM GMT

That's how I feel about Andrew Jackson on the $20.  I am very slightly Cherokee, so you don't have to lecture me about the Trail of Tears.  I do prefer to leave the past in the past, and focus on America's current challenges, but yes, it makes me very, very sad.

You are not offending me, and I also respect your opinion, and I want you to go on being outspoken.  You also are very intelligent, with a true heart for people (made obvious by your profession).  I am always a fan of people getting what they think out in the open, even if it inflames passions and causes 50+ post articles on a 10-person forum.

We're a site full of trolls; flames do not faze us. :-)

On Bush becoming a uniter, I doubt that will happen.  I think he is in a bad position, being a Republican president at a time when so many divisive social issues are coming to the fore.  For example, for a long time he held out on calling for a Federal Marriage Amendment, until the conservative base more or less forced him to.  Had he not supported the amendment, we would currently be preparing for the Kerry Administration.  Anyway, the sides Bush chooses on social issues are probably for the most part the sides of most Americans.  Except possibly on stem cell research.  But both parties are all about driving wedges into the electorate.  So Bush will never come to a position of being a uniter.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



If the Democrats' nominee (5.00 / 2) (#32)
by Beef on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 08:26:00 AM GMT

had a pair of balls/ovaries, you also wouldn't have lost.  They could have nominated someone who was for  the war and not afraid to say so, like Lieberman.  Or someone who was against the war, and not afraid to say so, like Dean (although not Dean in particular, as he would have gotten his ass beaten anyway).  Bush basically rolled over and played dead in the debates, and anyone willing to take a firm position could have wiped the floor with him.

Instead, you have a spineless wimp who changes his position whenever it looks too difficult to defend.

And don't blame the third party candidates, or the people who vote for them.  They voted against your candidate for a reason.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



Yep! (5.00 / 2) (#2)
by xxxxxxxxxx on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 12:20:16 PM GMT

I have to agree with you.  Some people that I truly care a great deal about actually voted for GW Bush and had his pictures (with his wife and daughters) up in their offices because they feel he is a 'good, honest, Christian, family man.  Yes Virginia, you are about as stupid as you were when you thought there was a Santa Claus!

Now, all you people who were for Bush, let me know how you feel when he cuts money for the soldiers benefits that are fighting his war on terrorism.  Let me know how you feel when he pulls out more money from medicaire and our elderly start going without even more than they already do.  You have no idea what this mans agenda really is, but if you look closely at how he has voted and whose side he has been on in most voting issues, you will begin to see what I am talking about.  

Not enough people do research.  They listen to the lovely conventions and the WHOOPLAH! that they put out during the campaign.  You need to read, you need to look into the real records and see what is going on.  You might find a huge surprise there that you didn't know was coming.

I dislike a man who uses fear and anxiety to create panic in peoples minds to steer them his way in an election.  That is basically what Bush and Cheney did.....I have a real problem with that.

We are no better defended against terrorism than we were before, believe me, you wanna get into this country, it is far too easy....been proven, look it up.  Terrorism is something you cannot hide from, you cannot defeat and you cannot make go away.  Yes, we need to be a strong, forceful country, but not to the point we are losing millions of dollars when it is not necessary.
Many of you stated you don't like giving money away to people who don't work, etc........hey, look at your Congressmen and Senators and tell me they earn their paychecks!  Please Open your eyes and realize that this is a game and not a good one.  We are about to lose our asses.....not just to terrorism but to lousy government.

So let me know how you like him at the end of the 4 years, that is if we are still here.



See, this is the thing: (none / 0) (#10)
by Beef on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 02:36:47 PM GMT

"So let me know how you like him at the end of the 4 years, that is if we are still here."

I want you to take some deep breaths, and relax. Linda, you are a very good person, you are a very bright person, but you need to remember that the world is not going to end just because there are leaders who disagree with you.

I find the level of fear and paranoia among some people to be baffling. Bush and Ashcroft are not going to round up homosexuals and Wiccans and send them to the gas chambers. They are not going to take anyone's porn away. They are not going to ban condoms, or make butt-sex illegal. They are not going to steal your lunch money and give it to Haliburton. They are not going to force your kids to recite the Nicean Creed at school. They aren't going to keep tabs on what you check out from the library (PATRIOT notwithstanding), and send in ATF goons if you like to read Nietsche and Marx.

Please, tell me how you are any less free now because of the Bush Administration. Cite specific examples.

You may I have policy differences with the current administration, but that doesn't make them evil incarnate. Reasonable people can disagree on a lot of issues.

Vlad:
the great ignorant slobbering masses of the festering remnant of a country that was once the land of the free

Well, that's a wonderful attitude to have towards your fellow American. Anyone who disagrees with you is a "great slobbering mass." Why do we even have a democracy? We should simply become a Vladocracy, since people are too stupid to govern themselves.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



You're wrong on several key points. (none / 0) (#39)
by Vladinator on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 10:04:19 AM GMT

Hey. I want you to know that this is not an off the cuff response. I am spending a considerable amount of time on this, as I really do want to try and get you to see my point of view on this whole thing. I respect that your opinion differs from mine. I can only believe that this is because you don't see something I do, or don't realize the significance of it all.

[...]remember that the world is not going to end just because there are leaders who disagree with you.

No one is saying that the world will end.

I find the level of fear and paranoia among some people to be baffling. Bush and Ashcroft are not going to round up homosexuals and Wiccans and send them to the gas chambers. They are not going to take anyone's porn away. They are not going to ban condoms, or make butt-sex illegal. They are not going to steal your lunch money and give it to Haliburton. They are not going to force your kids to recite the Nicean Creed at school. They aren't going to keep tabs on what you check out from the library (PATRIOT notwithstanding), and send in ATF goons if you like to read Nietzsche and Marx.

The Justice Department HAS in fact started to 'take your porn away'. The pressure put on domestic producers of porn is immense lately. Domestic producers of porn meet certain work standards that are not met outside our borders. It is much safer to produce this here, than it is in say Asia or Latin America. From work conditions, to safety, to medical care, we are by far the BEST place this material could be produced - and the Justice Department is trying to push it to a grinding halt. There will always be porn - the law of supply and demand, well, demands it. As long as there are men, there will be demand. Currently 3 billion or so strong, and growing.

If you loosely define 'lunch money' as 'taxes' then yes, they are taking my money, and yours, and giving it to Haliburton.

Our children were NEVER in any danger of having to recite something CATHOLIC in school - wrong sect, buddy. :-) I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Baptists go back to calling us papists however. America has a long history of Anti-Catholic behavior, and the people who have historically been responsible for that are now running the country.

Please, tell me how you are any less free now because of the Bush Administration. Cite specific examples.

I didn't used to have to take my shoe's off at the airport. I used to be able to carry my Leatherman on a plane. I never before had to PROVE to a skycop that my laptop worked before getting on a plane with it. This doesn't even begin to cover the rights lost under the patriot act. Lost rights = less freedom. I'm sure you think there are good reasons that justify the loss in freedom. I do not. Lost freedom = the terrorists have already won.  Or, "Those who would trade liberty for security will soon have neither," as Ben Franklin once opined.

You may I have policy differences with the current administration, but that doesn't make them evil incarnate. Reasonable people can disagree on a lot of issues.

No, lying to the American people, arrogance, greed, and lack of any shred of human decency - that is what makes them evil, in my opinion - I respect the fact that yours differs.

Vlad:

the great ignorant slobbering masses of the festering remnant of a country that was once the land of the free

Yes, that's what I said. And I meant it. Lots of people allowed themselves to be ruled by fear and ignorance this election cycle. >sarcasm<I'm guessing you're pro-Microsoft and anti-Linux now too? </sarcasm>

Well, that's a wonderful attitude to have towards your fellow American. Anyone who disagrees with you is a "great slobbering mass." Why do we even have a democracy? We should simply become a Vladocracy, since people are too stupid to govern themselves.

No, not everyone who disagrees with me - just the ones who voted for Bush for the wrong reasons. We have a democracy because American's bled and died for it. I'd be willing to listen to this particular criticism from you if you had worn a uniform for 8 years like I did. I earned the right to be critical - I did MORE than my part.

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it. - G.W. Bush"
[ Parent ]



I am taking what you have to say seriously. (none / 0) (#41)
by Beef on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 12:44:13 PM GMT

On the subject of porn:

Yes, there are the Edwin Meeses and the Jim(?) Bauers of the world. Sure, there are elements within the administration and the party who would like to ban porn, and keep it off the shelves and off of the Internet. And you know what else, there are also millions of Republican voters who would never let them get away with it.

You need to understand that the vast, vast majority of Americans love basic freedoms - the ability to speak freely, move freely, look at what we want, play the way we want. And the vast, vast majority of Americans, even Republicans, are tolerant of other Americans doing the same. Everyone in power knows this, and knows that we live in a Democracy, and they are one election away from losing their jobs. Even the most freedom-hating SOBs like John Ashcroft know this.

Now that said, how hard is it, really, to keep your porn out of sight of your kids, or people who are offended by it? Is it really a freedom to open up your Juggs in the middle of a public park, or is this just a convenience? My point is, there should be restrictions and controls. Your freedom is in tension with the freedoms of many others.

On the subject of Haliburton:

Yeah, no-bid contracts kinda suck. I think this is very poor behavior on the part of the administration. However, we are not giving money away. We are purchasing a service from them. That's what a contract is.

On religious freedoms:

First, the Nicean Creed is an ecumenical creed, not just a Catholic one. Second, in no place in the Constitution is it guaranteed that you are free from anyone else's religion, or lack or religion, or religious intolerance. And if the Baptists want to be bigoted and arrogant, what does that have to do with the government?

On homeland security measures:

You think that your freedoms have been violated because you have to take your shoes off at an airport and can't carry a knife on board a plane? Once again, you are confusing freedoms with conveniences. How about the freedom of the other passengers to be assured that no one on the flight can pull out a knife, slit the throats of the attendants, and hold everyone hostage. Or worse. I will not trade freedom for security. I will, however, gladly inconvenience myself for security, and the security of others.

I am certainly not the biggest fan of PATRIOT. Parts of it need to be repealed ASAP. The administration's disregard for the sanctity of civil liberties is the #1 reason Bush very nearly lost my vote. But let's put things into perspective. You and I are no less free now than we were in 2000. You are over-reacting, and blaming the wrong people for your troubles.

Re Lying, arrogance, greed: welcome to politics as usual. I think, however, you only want to see one side of the issues, and are more likely to detect lying arrogance, and greed, and lack of human decency where there isn't any. I know of one leader who did possess those qualities in spades. He's currently in the custody of the people he tortured and terrorized.

No, not everyone who disagrees with me - just the ones who voted for Bush for the wrong reasons. Who is the arbiter of what is a right and a wrong reason to vote for something? We all have our passions and our priorities.

I deeply respect your opinions, and I am very thankful that you defended me for eight years. I believe you are a true patriot. But I'd like you to have some amount of perspective, and faith in Democracy and the ability of people to choose their leaders and their government. The American people love liberty, and none of us, even those who are John Ashcroft fans, are going to let liberty be destroyed.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



A serious response. (none / 0) (#48)
by Vladinator on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 02:16:02 PM GMT

As a side note, do you think we'll actually hit 50 serious comments in this story? A first for SRU for sure. :-)

Yes, there are the Edwin Meeses and the Jim(?) Bauers of the world. Sure, there are elements within the administration and the party who would like to ban porn, and keep it off the shelves and off of the Internet. And you know what else, there are also millions of Republican voters who would never let them get away with it.

Yes, like Ashcroft. Frankly, I think you're kidding yourself about the 'control' you think you will exert over those you allowed to ascend to the throne. I pray to God in heaven that I am wrong about this. I suspect I am not.

You need to understand that the vast, vast majority of Americans love basic freedoms - the ability to speak freely, move freely, look at what we want, play the way we want. And the vast, vast majority of Americans, even Republicans, are tolerant of other Americans doing the same. Everyone in power knows this, and knows that we live in a Democracy, and they are one election away from losing their jobs. Even the most freedom-hating SOBs like John Ashcroft know this.

<Sarcasm mode=on>Oh - good news, everyone! We only have to wait 1,427 days to hold these guys accountable! Isn't that wonderful?</Sarcasm>

The people in power always act like people in power. Power corrupts. And what do all people in power want? More power.

Now that said, how hard is it, really, to keep your porn out of sight of your kids, or people who are offended by it? Is it really a freedom to open up your Juggs in the middle of a public park, or is this just a convenience? My point is, there should be restrictions and controls. Your freedom is in tension with the freedoms of many others.

Not at all difficult to keep porn our of the hands of Children, or others - it's called be a responsible adult, and stop trying to tell others what they can do - with their time, money, body, what ever. That's what the Religious Right misses - it's NOT appropriate for you (you being the Religious Right in this case, not you specifically) to tell others what they have to, or should, do. Let them make their own decisions. When it boils down to it, the Right only thinks the word 'Choice' applies to the abortion debate (which they can't be honest about to save their lives) when in fact, it's a philosophy. It's a way of life. Live and let live. Don't tell me what to do, I can take care of my self. Keep your laws off my body, my property, and out of my religion and way of thinking. In return, I'll do the same to you.
On the subject of Halliburton:

Yeah, no-bid contracts kinda suck. I think this is very poor behavior on the part of the administration. However, we are not giving money away. We are purchasing a service from them. That's what a contract is.

We are getting RIPPED OFF. Why was it such a bad thing for the congress, when democrats were in charge, to reign in $300 space tested toilet seats, and yet it's ok for the shameless, wasteful spending now to go on? Are we forgetting that the VP used to run Halliburton? When I was in the service, even the APPEARANCE of bad conduct was enough to ROAST YOUR ASS. You didn't have to be guilty, you just had to do something that called your honor, commitment, or integrity into question. Why is it any different for those in charge of the Nation?

On religious freedoms:

First, the Nicean Creed is an ecumenical creed, not just a Catholic one. Second, in no place in the Constitution is it guaranteed that you are free from anyone else's religion, or lack or religion, or religious intolerance. And if the Baptists want to be bigoted and arrogant, what does that have to do with the government?

So, your argument is that discrimination is ok? I work for about 850 labor and employment lawyers who will tell you otherwise. If you want to argue constitutional law, get some qualifications. And when Baptists (like GWB) are running the country, it has everything to do with it.

On homeland security measures:

You think that your freedoms have been violated because you have to take your shoes off at an airport and can't carry a knife on board a plane? Once again, you are confusing freedoms with conveniences. How about the freedom of the other passengers to be assured that no one on the flight can pull out a knife, slit the throats of the attendants, and hold everyone hostage. Or worse. I will not trade freedom for security. I will, however, gladly inconvenience myself for security, and the security of others.

A leatherman is a FRICKING PAIR OF PLIERS! It has a screw driver attachment, sure! And How about FSCK'ing NAIL CLIPPERS?!? Oh, it must be the terrorists! as Bea Arthur exclaimed. Ridiculous! EVERYONE has a right to security. EVERYONE has a right to liberty.

I am certainly not the biggest fan of PATRIOT. Parts of it need to be repealed ASAP. The administration's disregard for the sanctity of civil liberties is the #1 reason Bush very nearly lost my vote. But let's put things into perspective. You and I are no less free now than we were in 2000. You are over-reacting, and blaming the wrong people for your troubles.

Now, on this we mostly agree. PATRIOT is EVIL. I wouldn't have voted for bush, short of a lobotomy, but I agree that the administration has disregard for civil liberties. We ARE less free now. In 2000, and part of 2001, I could fly with my leatherman on my belt, not having had to take off my shoes, carrying a broken laptop with me onto the plain if I so chose. I have friends who immigrated to this country, went home to visit, and were denied entry back in to the US simply because they came from a country that has a lot of Muslims. They had lived here for over 20 years. That's FSCK'ing bullshit. Does it really sound like we're 'just as free' <sic> now as we were in 2000? I don't think so.

Re Lying, arrogance, greed: welcome to politics as usual. I think, however, you only want to see one side of the issues, and are more likely to detect lying arrogance, and greed, and lack of human decency where there isn't any. I know of one leader who did possess those qualities in spades. He's currently in the custody of the people he tortured and terrorized.

When we become jaded, and allow ourselves to view this as 'politics as usual' that is when we are at our worst. This should NOT be politics as usual. I try very hard to see both sides. I was in the service for a long time, and nearly everyone I worked with was a conservative Republican. I have been over and over what they say and do, and some of it makes sense. The problem is, they won't talk about the parts that don't - like their dishonesty over choice issues. Saddam is the end of the spectrum. If we keep going down the path we're on now, that's the end we're likely to meet.

No, not everyone who disagrees with me - just the ones who voted for Bush for the wrong reasons. Who is the arbiter of what is a right and a wrong reason to vote for something? We all have our passions and our priorities.

I AM. For my purposes, that's ME. I decide who I think is, or isn't right, wrong, smart, stupid, etc. NO ONE ELSE can make those judgments for me - I have to make them for myself. I am the only one who can make those judgments for myself, as I am the one held accountable for them. As you basically point out, it's the same for you - and everyone else.

I deeply respect your opinions, and I am very thankful that you defended me for eight years. I believe you are a true patriot. But I'd like you to have some amount of perspective, and faith in Democracy and the ability of people to choose their leaders and their government. The American people love liberty, and none of us, even those who are John Ashcroft fans, are going to let liberty be destroyed.

I was happy to be of service. I still serve in my own way, which is by participating in our democracy. I am a voter registrar for Will county Il, and also an election judge. I do have faith in the people. I'm just not certain it was their voice we heard. I only hope that people learn from the next four years, and realize that sometimes, gridlock was not such a bad thing.

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it. - G.W. Bush"
[ Parent ]



Point of fact: (none / 0) (#49)
by Beef on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 02:38:02 PM GMT

GWB is a Methodist, his parents are Episcopalians, and his brother is a Roman Catholic.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



Nice, but you still can't win (5.00 / 1) (#13)
by l33t j03 on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 04:36:55 PM GMT

That was pretty well done, but I can assure you that neither Linda nor Vlad see your viewpoint any better than before.

The thing is, you are fundamentally different from these people. You and they cannot even agree on the most basic assumptions behind any of the points you are trying to make. Linda finds out that 'her' taxes pay for unemployment benefits that are meager at best, and gets pissed off at the government for not giving her enough. I, and probably you, would get pissed off because they took so much away in the first place.

I don't really know who is right. I think I am, they think they are, who knows. It is fun to sit back and watch. Watch people who have lived the bulk of their lives in absolute comfort and freedom get absolutely hysterical over shit that has been going on since the first European hatchet split the first Native skull.

Just let it go. In four years those ignorant savages Vlad sees in rural America will swing left and be his friends again, salt of the earth, and they'll vote Democrat. Then all my currently cheering friends at the gun club will start burying ammunition in the back yard while looking over their shoulder for Lon Horiuchi. Its all good clean fun.

Pain is weakness leaving the body.
[ Parent ]



Some games are fun (none / 0) (#22)
by Beef on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 06:49:59 PM GMT

regardless of whether we win or lose.  If this were a site full of Republicans, I would be fighting with them about why Bush's victory does not usher in a great new golden age for America and the establishment of God's government on Earth.  Or, had Kerry won, I would be assuring them that we're not about to turn tail and run in the War on Terror, and Kerry's not going to disband the military and make religion illegal in public.

For the record, I voted for exactly one Republican last Tuesday.  I even voted for a Green for Congress.  I am not a partisan hack.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



Hahahahahahahahahaa!!!! (5.00 / 1) (#17)
by xxxxxxxxxx on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 05:04:47 PM GMT

"Watch people who have lived the bulk of their lives in absolute comfort and freedom get absolutely hysterical over shit that has been going on since the first European hatchet split the first Native skull."

First of all, I am about 1/2 'Native skull' as you put it. Second, I have not lived in absolute comfort  nor freedom all my life.  Was not reared with a silver spoon in my mouth.

It isn't that I do not understand and respect anothers opinion, I just happen to have the right to vent my opinions and feelings on this matter as much as anyone else.  If someone doesn't agree with me, it doesn't mean I decide they don't exist or are stupid.......I just let them know what I think.  I have not always done that.......used to not voice my opinion on anything and let everyone else do that.......one day I decided it was time that the wallflower bloomed and started voiceing what she thought too.

You made some good points here and I laughed for a good while after reading your post........it was good.  

[ Parent ]



Ok (5.00 / 2) (#21)
by l33t j03 on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 06:48:53 PM GMT

There are a huge number of people in this world who, every day, live with the very real possiblity that when they wake up in the morning their neighbors will be there with machetes and kill every single human being they have ever met in their entire lives. There are people out there who can't afford to buy any food and even if they could there wouldn't be any anywhere to buy. Countries where armed guards have to be stationed at polling places to keep the other side from setting you on fire for voting the wrong way.

Look at these guys:

Imagine seeing these guys on the way to the coffee shop in the morning. Imagine they stop you and ask what you have in your pockets, what if they want your pants? Your fingernails? They're hungry, they need some more dolls to adorn their grille, their AKs are locked and loaded. Now thats a fucked up place to live.

It'd redefine tough day for most westerners, I'm sure.

But everything is relative. Right now I'm pissed off because my iPod is taking too long to sync. The click wheel faced bastard doesn't care a whit about my need to get a Tom Waits fix, and I'm starting to get offended.

Pain is weakness leaving the body.
[ Parent ]



Image posting (none / 0) (#42)
by Beef on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 01:24:57 PM GMT

This one has never failed me (except maybe once):

http://www.imageshack.us

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



You can't see it? (none / 0) (#51)
by l33t j03 on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 06:45:11 AM GMT

I can. It is on a members only site but I'm supposed to be able to link. For what it's worth...


Pain is weakness leaving the body.
[ Parent ]



And frankly (none / 0) (#45)
by Vladinator on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 01:46:24 PM GMT

I might upgradify our scoopage at some point to allow people to store files and reference them, like images.

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it. - G.W. Bush"
[ Parent ]



You're absolutely correct (5.00 / 1) (#15)
by Bold Marauder on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 04:46:40 PM GMT

and that division in viewpoints is something which will only grow deeper as time wears on.

How long can a house divided remain standing?

--
.-=Welcome to the Vaginal Grid=-.
[ Parent ]



how long? (none / 0) (#18)
by Reza on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 05:37:12 PM GMT

So far...just over 200 years...give or take a few.

[ Parent ]


Except for that whole north south thingy (none / 0) (#19)
by Bold Marauder on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 05:57:55 PM GMT

God help us, the south IS rising again!

--
.-=Welcome to the Vaginal Grid=-.
[ Parent ]


Hahahahahahahahahahahahaaha!! (5.00 / 1) (#26)
by xxxxxxxxxx on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 04:09:52 AM GMT

That really made me laugh!  But you are right, in many ways.  God forbid!

I live in the South, see it happening more and more.  Kids wearing jewelry with the Confederate flag design on it, T-shirts, bumper stickers, the flag on their back seats.....windshields, etc.

I get the feeling people don't really realize how bad that period of time was for our country. I wish they would and get their head out of their asses and realize that its better to come together for a common goal rather than divide for something stupid.

Sigh........I hear Lynyrd Skynyrd everyday when cars go down the road.......Ha!

This is why I choose to watch the BBC most of the time.........:-)

[ Parent ]



"This is why I choose to watch the BBC" (none / 0) (#27)
by Beef on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 05:48:35 AM GMT

How dare you be so unpatriotic!

Note: this statement is intended as irony, as you are surrounded by people wearing an emblem of open rebellion against the United States.

--
Be conservative in what you do. Be liberal in what you accept from others.
[ Parent ]



Giggle! (none / 0) (#40)
by xxxxxxxxxx on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 10:48:23 AM GMT

Yep, I am one of those who believe Eddie Izzard could do a better job of being President of our country than our own people.  :-)

I just think it would be neat to see the President show up at his inaugeral ball in the dress usually worn by the first lady.  In full make-up as well.
You can bet that a lot of people would tune in to see it and also make the effort to go to the thing!

Yes, I like comedy and total looniness!  However, there is a bit of seriousness to that in we are too 'tunnel visioned' in this country.  We speak one language (the universal language) English!  We don't make it required to learn a foreign language and we should....we should want our kids to speak other than English (and I don't mean ebonics!).  We are furthuring ourselves from each other at a time when we really ought to be drawing closer for something we value....our lives, our children, our freedom, our future.

I mean we are furthuring ourselves from our allies and that is a dangerous thing to do.  We need other countries and they need us.  It should stay that way.

When you learn to bend and lean like a tree towards another, you stand longer and stronger, when you try to stand alone, you have the good potential to break and that means you are vulnerable, alone, broken.  I don't want to see that.

[ Parent ]



To Senator John Kerry (fp) (5.00 / 4) (#1)
by Dead Penis Bird on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 11:16:21 AM GMT

YOU FAIL IT!

OK, fp.

Let the pity party begin.  HAHAHAHAHAHA!

If I weren't nailed to the penis, I'd be pushing up the daisies!



Hell opened up, and put on sale. Gather round and haggle. | 59 comments (59 topical, 0 hidden)
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